Werewolf: The Apocalypse Exchange ideas, questions and stories about Werewolf: The Apocalypse. 44 Post(s) on this Topic Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... W_H - 06/26/2004 11:53:22 - winter_heart@videotron.ca Maybe I'm just being spoiled because I just finished reading Wendigo and Red Talon (which IMO, were really great TB)... But is it me or CoG is actually painful to read? It's like watching a train wreck. The opening story alone was.... ugh... awful. It was confusing and rather... I don't know, incoherent to start with, just didn't seem anywhere near the calibre of any post 1st edition WW book - and heck, even then, I'd go as far as to say that was the worse WW story I have read. When Darth Vader - er, I mean, the Black Spiral Dancer - dropped the father line, I actually cringed. I've skimmed over a few other sections (namely the breeds, tribes and camps options) and it really doesn't seem to be looking up all that much >_<. I do feel like I've picked up one of the older non-polished 1st editions books (Stereotypes... and that's it's a bad one at that. Kinda disapointing.... the original (1st edition) CoG tribebook wasn't really good either, I was hoping they'd redeemed in this one. : ( But anyway, enough ranting... for anybody who's read the book, is it there anything that's actually salvagable in the book or shou;d I just stick with my own conception of the CoG? Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... Stalks-the-Ice - 06/26/2004 12:13:23 - sackcarthage@yahoo.com I haven't read it myself, but its been said here often. Talk to Juju. She has a lot of terrific ideas about the tribe. -Stalks-the-Ice "...but the lovliest of all was the unicorn" Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... aprilgarou - 06/26/2004 12:32:21 *frothfrothfroth* CoG tribebook...argh... If you want a slightly more...uh...sane look at the Children, I second the suggestion to look to Juju for guidance. Actually, look to the Children of Gaia Revised Revised Tribebook. http://www.livejournal.com/community/gaian_children/ Boom. Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... W_H - 06/26/2004 12:39:16 - winter_heart@videotron.ca So... do we have any idea as to how this abomination came to be? There's a noticable raise in quality in writting and depth in material with every editions (well, almost, pre-skemp 2nd Edition book are often just as good as Revised material. You made the game line kick ass Ethan).... but what the hell happened here? Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... Taliesin* - 06/26/2004 12:49:11 - taliesin_sb@hotmail.com Hang on, I'll just get comfortable. I'll be back in a second, I just want to grab a comfortable cushion and make myself a cup of tea. ... ... Okay, now that I'm settled: Juju will be here soon guys and she'll be more than happy to answer all your questions on this matter and to sympathise with your feelings. Bless that girl. *looks at his watch* Annnnnny minute now... I wonder what time it is over her way... Taliesin "I am old, I am new. I have been dead, I have been alive." Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... sneakolai - 06/26/2004 13:16:35 I thought I'd read that Skemp didn't go through the book before it actually was printed, and that's why all the... crap... is in it. I never bought it, but from what my friends tell me about the revised CoG book, it sounds like it'd better base source material for a Black Spiral Dancer tribebook. Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... LunaticFlute - 06/26/2004 15:01:24 - utopianexcapades@yahoo.com They introduce CoG stickfighting, and, uh, um, have no redeming value whatsoever in the book from what I remember. Giant Garou Sombrero, GO!-LF Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... W_H - 06/26/2004 15:02:51 - winter_heart@videotron.ca One of my friend read the stick-jitsu yesterday and according to him, it doesn't make much sense nor does it give you any real advantage. Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... Duct_Shui_Tengu - 06/26/2004 15:55:11 Careful guys, keep this up and you're going to get us all accused of homophobia again. Because everyone knows that's the only reason anyone could not like the steaming pile of [deleted to comply with use terms] that is CoG Revised. [/sarcasm] Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... PalominoMule - 06/26/2004 16:06:58 - palominomule@hotmail.com I'm *terribly* sorry about being late to the party. My dear mother did a number on the linksys, and, well, the web and all its wonders were simply inaccessible until now. A pity, that. As it is...the Children of Gaia Revised Tribebook. Dear Lord, what did we do to deserve this? Aye. It was painful to read. THe opening story was horrible. The constant barrage of "fiction" mucking up the meat of the book is unbearable. Worst of all, it does *nothing* to combat the stereotypes the Children of Gaia suffer. A bunch of drugged out hippie charach? YOU FUCKING BET. Heck, it even has the (Rite that Shall Not Be Named), giving a spiritual sanction to hot crinos-on-crinos action! Sweet furry porn ahoy, yeehah! The camps aren't so bad, in so much as they still exist - at least he didn't bother with the Aethera Inamorata, but you really don't need them when the entire tribe seems sex-crazed, eh? For good God's sake, Comer left out *Auspices*. Intentionally. After this was published there were...discussions on the forums in which the author did indeed participate. I do seem to recall that he actually intentionally left out Auspices. As in, it's not like he forgot (not that "I forgot" is much of an excuse with something as important as Auspices anyhow) so much as he opted to leave it out to make room for other, more important stuff. You know. Like Garou crowd-surfing and whatever other bits of Woodstock (FUCKING WOODSTOCK!) nonsense Comer felt necessary to include. AUSPICES. The single most important role and division in Garou society...left out. Furthermore, he ended up accusing everyone of being homophobes because we didn't like the constant Ringer and Hack wuv fest mucking up what should have been a tribebook. It was eventually said by someone - I know not who - that a big problem was that it ended up being about a *few* Children of Gaia instead of *the* Children of Gaia. Which is true. Why are we focusing on a handful of Garou, most of them low-ranking, at a music festival for the humans? Why? Hell if I know. Oh, and Cries-Havoc and True Silverheels both magically transform into Philodox. The reason all this got by was that, indeed, it was rushed to press and Ethan didn't get a chance to look through it and tell Jim Comer what to revise. On top of the bad writing, I'm not entirely happy about the art either. I know that Ethan likes Leif Jones a lot, but for the most part I seem him as an artist that has great ideas *for* art, but he tends to execute it poorly. Brain LeBlanc may have history with W:tA, but he isn't all that good. Kieran J. Yanner has talent, but his work in the historical chapter did little for me, and a little to piss me off (drugged-out hippies, yaaaaaay...). Where's Spencer and Prescott (besides the templates, of course)? Where's Andrew Bates and Jeff Rebner? Okay, okay. But really - there has to be some saving grace, right? Well, I do actually like some of the crunchy bits. Some of the gifts are pretty damn cool, the rites are decent (besides, of course, the Rite that Shall Not Be Named), some of the merits and flaws are appropriate, and I really can't dislike Father Mule (eeh!) and Eagle. I really would have liked to have seen a fetish *weapon* in there somewhere, but this book did nothing to boost the idea of the Children of Gaia as bellipotent. So...garr. If Iskakku isn't effective in the sense of dice and rules, then it probably needs to be beefed up. I like the *idea*, mind, but I never really tried it out to see what advantage it provides. I should go do that. Thanks for the pimpage. Yep, Becky and I are working on another version of the tribebook. It's a bit quiet now, but I've been inspired to get back to work, I have. -JuJu Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... aprilgarou - 06/26/2004 17:40:42 JuJu, I will pimp that project till the day I die. It's awesome. I...really don't have anything more important to say. Go JuJu. Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... Duct_Shui_Tengu - 06/26/2004 17:41:24 I have to agree on the subject of Iskakku, great idea, lousy execution. But let's take a look at individual maneuvers and when you get them to see why. And please, pardon the vagueness, but I'm trying to avoid copyright problems here. Level 1: Attack and block - fairly self-explanatory what it does, no better or worse than melee at this point at least for staff fighting, but melee still works for all other weapons while Iskakku is just staves Level 2: Mahatsu Qatu - you hit your opponent's hand when they try to swing at you. actually a fairly good maneuver IMO. Tammabukka Istu Kur - a thrust that does 2 extra dice of damage, fairly decent really and I don't have much in the way of complaints here either. Tabala Kur - a sweep that if you're lucky trips your opponent. Problem is that they automatically get to resist at a lower difficulty than you. So, why is it diff 8 to trip someone with a staff? And what is the damage on this, it just says "special" Level 3: Isten Kima Ummanate - similar to splitting for 2 strikes, but with a few differences. First, if you have more than 5 dice to hit them with a staff (keep in mind here that 4 is the absolute minimum to be able to do this maneuver at all) then you get fewer dice to hit with doing it this way, and second, you do one less die of damage with each of your two strikes. Level 4: Sepu Istu An - Not too bad here either, a diff 7 kick for Str + 3 damage But it takes 2 actions. *shrugs* all in all, not too bad though. Sepsu Sepu - Like Isten Kima Ummanate, but now we throw in a kick at the end. and once again the resultant dice-pools are almost guaranteed to be worse doing it this way. Admittedly, with Dex 1 and thus just 5 dice to pull it off (raise your hand and slap yourself if you think you're reaching this proficiency with any sort of martial art while still having Dex 1), you're slightly better off doing it this way (1 more die for each of the last 2 actions) but after that, it just isn't worth it. And we waited until Iskakku 4 for this because...? Level 5: Adannu Lukur Daku - another good one, drop your opponent with one maneuver that requires 2 moves. But really, for requiring 5 dots in Iskakku, it isn't that impressive. Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... Sparky - 06/26/2004 19:38:59 Yes, I am in agreance with everyone here. That "Tribebook" was easily the worst out of the bunch. It gave me little to no insight on the tribe as a whole. I posted on this before as well. I actually waited until a friend of mine bought TB:Fianna before I got it, just to make sure it wasn't as bad as CoG! Two things I've said about it before, that I will repeat: I thought in TB: CoG Rev that the emphasis would be on Gaia, not Children! And second: It really is more of a PACKbook than a Tribebook. I think it's great if you want insight on this one pack of low-ranking Garou without any kind of Elders or older, more knowledgable Garou speaking up. It's perfect for that. Unfortunately, when I shell out my $15, I do expect a little more. Okay, one more thing. I really really hated how they clumped the Nagah in with the Mokole on the Fera part. I mean, a pack this inexperience I think would either not know about them at all (most likely), or have no info about them at all! i kno it could be a common Garou mistake as a lot of the other Tribes tend to think the Mokole and Nagah both dead, but still...it just put me off On an up not, I do like the gifts and rites (I need to look up that orgy rite, don't remember it) (sounds more like a Spiral rite though...or maybe a Spiral right!) In an odd way, I do like the Fetish dice they have. Something about rolling d10s to have your character roll d6s, it's amusing in a way. Sparky, Drugs, Sex, and Rock and Roll, before Gaia? They MUST be children! Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... rainmaker - 06/27/2004 04:46:00 - wyrdfox@mchsi.com One of my biggest gripes with the Children of Gaia is how peaceful they are (it's the stereotype). Let's look at the name... Children of Gaia. Gaia is not peaceful. In fact, she's a pretty crazy bitch. On a higher spiritual level, she probably cares deeply about all of her creation, but she tests them all in intense, mind twisting ways. The simplest of her creatures kill and attempt to kill each other on a day to day basis. The Children of Gaia should not be about tripping people with sticks. On another note, the Children of Gaia's ancient spiritual heritage is almost completely ignored. They have ties to ancient Sumeria which had a moon God named Sin, rather than a female moon Goddess. This alone could make for much interesting intertribal roleplaying, especially if the Moon continues to present itself as Sin to the CoG... All this is shit on to make way for bloody Woodstock. Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... happynowhere - 06/28/2004 00:15:37 - happynowhere@hotmail.com Woodstock? WOODSTOCK? And then tried to blame the violence there on Spirals? Argh..... I think this is the third or fourth time that I've posted on this book, but that book makes me fume. WereWolf is a rockin' game, and every other Tribebook was a friggin piece of art (I haven't read Stargazers yet, though). As for being a homophobe.... When I bought this book, one of my players was gay. I thought the love story was stupid. First off, one guy is an Ahroun and does nothing Ahrounish- just pines for his lover like a little girl. Second, Werewolf goes into so much detail about how a Lupus thinks differently than a Homid that I can't buy his lover being a wolf. I showed this book to my player, and he was offended at the portrayal of a gay man. In response to that, he made a gay Glass Walker Ahroun that ACTED LIKE A REAL GAY MAN, not a caricature, as well as a RAGE FILLED PISSED OFF WARRIOR OF A DYING MOTHER. Oh, and the friggin' "Vegan" flaw? Why the hell would a creature that is half wolf be Vegan? For that matter, why would a Werewolf, who knows that there is a spirit world, knows that their prey's spirit continues on, knows that hunting is the natural order for their species, be Vegan? Don't give me the argument of "well, that's why it's a flaw." It makes no sense! You might as well have the flaw "Walking Dead" or "Cannot Shapeshift." I wanted to see the stereotypes broken. I wanted to see an Ancient culture. I wanted to see the Priests of the Garou Nation, perhaps with details on a Gaian version of True Faith (or maybe not.. could be twinkish). But, more than that, I wanted to see WEREWOLVES. There was nothing about any of these characters that even remotely said Werewolf! For Christ sakes, how many protests did they hang out at? Wouldn't the Curse come into play? Wouldn't they frenzy and kill everyone when the police attacked? This should have been described as something that their Kinfolk did, not the Garou. And an Ahroun fighting non lethally with a stick? Please. Starting Ahroun's have FIVE dots of Rage. One dot of Rage is described as being 10 times worse than the worst anger a human has ever felt. People commit crimes of passion all the time. Werewolves wig out and destroy whatever's around them, not safely render them unconscious with a stick and then go off to buy their lover some flowers. Or do some drugs. And don't even get me started on the implied bestiality... Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... aprilgarou - 06/28/2004 12:25:22 When I first started reading the thing, I thought 'that's something I've never thought of before. Garou silently supporting their kin at a protest rally.' Then they got involved in the rally. Then they started shapeshifting. In the streets. One would think that a tribe whose crinos form is so easily remembered by humans would be a little less stupid about where they pop into Big Fuzzy. And then Darth Vader showed up, and all was lost. The impression I got through the whole book was that it was _not_ about the Children as a tribe. I would have liked to hear more from Soldier of Paradise (I think that's his name). From True Silverheels. From pretty much everyone but Ringer and the charaching superfriends. I didn't get any new ideas out of the whole story, and thought it was, quite frankly, stupid. Woodstock didn't need Black Spiral Dancers smashing stuff and breaking up a Child of Gaia moot (?!) to be rotten. I think it would have been better handled had the Children _actually had to deal with humanity at it's worst_. That is something I would have loved to see. How _does_ a Child of Gaia deal with a human who's out of control, harming those around him or her, but isn't Wyrm tainted? The relationship between the two gay folks irritated me. (Disclaimer: Me gay. Me gay long time.) It didn't need to be brought up every few sentences. Mooning over each other was just...bleah. I don't buy tribebooks for their high romantic content. I buy them to get better insight into the tribe in question, and the insight I got wasn't particularily great. By the time I got to the crunchy bits, I was already pretty geared up. Then...The Rite Which Shall Not Be Named. I had to put the book down. I expected a lot from the Child of Gaia tribebook, freely admitted. I knew not all of my expectations would be fulfilled, but I didn't think the book would go about doing so in such spectacular fashion. I like the author's other work, which makes me wonder what went so very wrong with this volume. I keep it for the crunchy stuff, and for the laugh value it has provided me. ("Hey, can I take Father Mule as a personal totem?" "At a Caern of Fertility? Can you say Ronin?") And that's my (long) opinion on the Children of Gaia tribebook. Go read JuJu's, it's better for you. Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... sees-the-truth - 06/28/2004 14:21:27 I didn't think it was *that* bad. >>Why the hell would a creature that is half wolf be Vegan? For that matter, why would a Werewolf, who knows that there is a spirit world, knows that their prey's spirit continues on, knows that hunting is the natural order for their species, be Vegan?<< Well, as far as I know, in real life being Vegan isn't exactly a choice, it's more like an overall repulsion of the taste of animal products. It's not so much as that they don't want to eat meat as that their bodies reject it so violently that they cannot. And I loved the Iksakku combat. Sure it's not perfectly accurate but for someone who wants to do staff fighting it's a very good start. All the techniques are real and the progression makes sense. As to an Ahroun using a staff, it could just be an interesting character quirk. After all, you can't use Iksakku when frenzing anyway, so it could be an attempt to not frenz at all. ~sees Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... PalominoMule - 06/28/2004 14:37:00 - palominomule@hotmail.com >>I didn't think it was *that* bad.<< ...you're kidding, right? >>Well, as far as I know, in real life being Vegan isn't exactly a choice, it's more like an overall repulsion of the taste of animal products. It's not so much as that they don't want to eat meat as that their bodies reject it so violently that they cannot.<< Uh...no? Maybe for some people. But a lot of animal products aren't really going to be a noticable taste in foods (various enzymes, trace amounts, etc.) so even if you don't like the taste of meat, milk, eggs, and so on you can still ingest it without the taste being noticable at all. The biggest reasons I've seen to be a vegan are for health (irrelevant when you're a werewolf, I'd say) and moral reasons. The latter might still come up. Mind you, I'd say a werewolf would have a hard time maintaining a vegan lifestyle past the First Change...very hard. Don't know why they would in most cases either. That said, if they've been a vegetarian for a long time and then start eating lots of meat, it can make them ill until their digestive system adapts, but s'only temporary. Any Garou's going to have to get past any "yuck" factor about flesh pretty quickly, y'know? -JuJu Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... happynowhere - 06/28/2004 18:24:01 - happynowhere@hotmail.com Who wrote that piece of tr...ur... Tribebook, anyway? I don't remember because that's the only Tribebook that I immediately took to Gameboard and traded for some dice. Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... gecko-bitch - 06/28/2004 19:55:35 Erf... in all honesty, and people will hate me for this... I liked this tribebook. I actually liked it a lot. Now, I don't know what went on between the forum and Jim Comer, I'm new here, I wasn't around to see it, but here's my opinion, for whatever 2 cents it may be worth: Everybody's saying it portrays the Children as hippies. For one thing, I don't think that's totally true - I think it often stresses that the way to peace is struggle. If you don't like that the Children of Gaia pursue peace, then deal with it - that's the whole idea behind the tribe. The book doesn't dictate that all Children are meant to smoke pot, be vegan and eat funny mushrooms. Just that some do. Maybe I'm just silly, because I also love "Hair" and I've seen it far too many times, but what I got from this movie and also from this tribebook is a love for life. A celebration of life. The Children are meant to celebrate life. For me, dancing and loving and laughing and being happy is the best way to celebrate life. They still work hard toward peace, but they're not bitter and they're not jaded. They fight for peace sometimes, but they're not meant to be fighters. To me, when I read this tribebook, I get a feeling I don't get from any of the other tribebooks. It makes me feel like I'm not living enough or not enjoying life enough. Which very few books do for me. So maybe it's a personal feeling. In terms of technicalities, yes, I think it's kind of silly that characters got philodoxed, auspices got left out, the "I am your father" cliched line... yes, it's all kind anything but perfect and I admit, that can be improved. But I like it because to me it showed a tribe that tried its best to celebrate the beauty of Gaia, to protect her and her children, even her human children. Wanna know something else? I like Ringer. A lot. I think he's a great character. I think this whole complaint of "he's not a real Ahrouny Ahroun!" is bloody annoying. Guess what? One. Your auspice doesn't determine every aspect of your life. Look at "Book of Auspices", there's a big fat greek disclaimer. It determines part of your urges, your personality and your emotions, but it doesn't just make you everything you are. Ringer has Ahroun traits - he has trouble containing his rage sometimes, he wants to fight - both for human rights and physically, wanting to join packs to hunt for banes in the Umbra. There's your Ahroun traits right there! If you want an Ahroun who claws everything in his path, attacks humans and non-humans alike unthinkingly, and has blood perpetually guzzling from his fangs, and can't think about anything but fighting, you're missing the point of Werewolf, of storytelling and making interesting characters. Ringer is an Ahroun but he's also a person beyond that. So what if he's gay (not pulling the homophobe card on you, mind)? So what if he's in love? A lot of Ahroun in games I've been in were deeply in love. Where's the problem here? I think it's great that he's in love, adds an interesting bit to the character. So he's not all determined and respectful, all noble Ahroun and such. He's a kid. He doesn't know what he wants to do with his life yet, how he wants to help Gaia. It's an interesting character concept. I had characters with similar indecision resting on them. I liked this book. It had a few technical problems but I liked the story was told. It gave the "feel" I expected from the Children. A lot of tribes were, IMHO, changed for the worse when revised hit, the Children are, to me, one of the tribes that improved. I used to not like them at all and now they're one of my favourite tribes. For those who still think they're too peaceful - whatdaya want? They took the Anointed Ones out already. But the Children of Gaia ARE meant to be peaceful, they seek peace. The Imminent Strike is still there for people who want to play the odd Child that barks instead of biting, but if you want a fighting Garou, just stop whining and get a Get of Fenris character. Or Bone Gnawer if you want to go urban. To me the Children were always about peace, and I'm glad they still are. Which is why I think it's great they don't have fetish weapons in the book, too. To each their own - I love these Children 2.0, hemp necklaces and gay activism and sex and everything else. *shrugs* Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... Laughing_Hyena - 06/28/2004 20:05:49 98% of the teenage/adult population hates the Revised Children of Gaia Tribebook. If you're part of the 2% who doesn't, copy this in your journal. I don't have the book, but it looks like it's going on my list of things to buy last... In fact I don't have the first edition CofG book (only first edition tribebook I'm missing) and that looks more tempting to buy than the revised book. Of course you can always check out: http://www.livejournal.com/community/gaian_children/ More pimpage to Juju... Laughing Hyena Spaking for Boskone Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... gecko-bitch - 06/28/2004 20:33:44 <<98% of the teenage/adult population hates the Revised Children of Gaia Tribebook. If you're part of the 2% who doesn't, copy this in your journal.>> Which is to say... what? That I'm a minority or a dork? Or both? <> Have you at least read it? Because I always thought it was silly to dislike or like something you haven't seen / read / heard / whatever. As for the vegan thing - I thought it was a BIT silly, I would've felt better had it just been vegetarian. But it's mostly a matter of morals, most vegans I know are doing this out of morality, not wanting to hurt other living things purposely. Not every Child of Gaia is supposed to have this flaw, but I think it's an interesting idea. The Children are full of idealism and wanting to do the right thing, so this seems right up their alley. Even if they don't have an issue with eating meat or animal products, they'd probably have an issue with how these animal products are attained - factory farms and the like. And even if they can go out and hunt wild animals - if you're a homid and you've lived your whole life as a vegan or vegetarian, it's difficult to become friends with the idea of hunting down a deer and tearing its throat out and then eating it's red hot meat. I'm not vegan. I'm not vegetarian. Neither are any of my characters. But I think it's a very interesting concept and I don't see why people raise holy hell over something just because they think their character (or they themselves) shouldn't be doing it. IMHO it was very in-character for the Children. Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... Laughing_Hyena - 06/28/2004 20:59:38 I guess you don't go on LJ to get the joke..... It's been posted on a few Live journals and communites, usually on pot smoking or what not. But it always uses 98% and 2%. Laughing Hyena Speaking of Boskone Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... FBM - 06/28/2004 23:31:28 >>And even if they can go out and hunt wild animals - if you're a homid and you've lived your whole life as a vegan or vegetarian, it's difficult to become friends with the idea of hunting down a deer and tearing its throat out and then eating it's red hot meat.<< After being a normal guy for my whole life, I think I'd have some initial qualms with the idea that I will turn into a walking cuisinart (that sheds) and ripping my family apart because Stargate is on and Dad won't give me the remote. But after a bit, the whole shapeshifting business would feel. . . natural. I think the notion of vegan/vegetarian werewolves is absurd and most unnatural. But that's just me. Oh, wait, it's not, but run with it in your games if you like. Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... Freemage - 06/29/2004 01:50:39 - freemage@yahoo.com gecko>> >>Maybe I'm just silly, because I also love "Hair" and I've seen it far too many times, but what I got from this movie and also from this tribebook is a love for life. A celebration of life. The Children are meant to celebrate life. For me, dancing and loving and laughing and being happy is the best way to celebrate life. They still work hard toward peace, but they're not bitter and they're not jaded. They fight for peace sometimes, but they're not meant to be fighters.<< I think the last line of this sums up the problem. The CoG are Garou, and ALL Garou are meant to be fighters. They are Gaia's teeth and claws, pure and simple. The book should have drawn a line showing them dealing with the struggle to maintain the difficult balance of fighting for peace. All the time. It's a hard thing to do. It's contradictory and easy to fall to one side or the other. But it's what they are meant to do. The trick of portraying the Tribe [and once again, as others have noted--the book is supposed to be about the TRIBE, not a fiction piece about a pack] is to show us HOW they do that. It's a tall order--and sadly, the writer simply wasn't up to the job. Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... Chrisondra - 06/29/2004 03:26:31 - chrisondra@vampirethemasquerade.com Here I am to reply! ::grins:: >>people will hate me for this...<< That's more like, people will just stare at you for this... >>I liked this tribebook. I actually liked it a lot. Now, I don't know what went on between the forum and Jim Comer<< He called us homophobic for daring to criticize his Tribebook... not once, but twice. Now you know. He apologized the first time and didn't the second time, which actually pissed me off to a degree, and that's hard to do. >>Everybody's saying it portrays the Children as hippies. For one thing, I don't think that's totally true<< I'm sorry, but number one: Woodstock. Number two: The freaking Theurge template which makes me want to pull my hair out. Number three: The Rite that Shall Not Be Named... which is the Rite of the Clouds and Rain since you might not know, being new... ::shudders and goes to get a Rite of Cleansing after naming the stupid thing:: Sex, Pot, and Peace peace peace! >>I think it often stresses that the way to peace is struggle. If you don't like that the Children of Gaia pursue peace, then deal with it - that's the whole idea behind the tribe.<< The Children of Gaia pursue peace... among the tribes. They pursue Unity. The general belief is that unity between the tribes and Fera is needed in order to face the coming Apocalypse and win. There is no question that a war is coming. There is no question that sitting back and advocating peace is just going to let the freaking Dancers and Wyrm in to fight instead and win. Look at it from historical fact. When America was colonized, some people who came over went to some tribes of Native Americans and convinced them that peace was the key. Those tribes were then wiped out by other tribes. When you live in a society that is meant for way, overall peace will just get you killed. The Children of Gaia are *warriors*. They'll fight the Wyrm just like anyone. If a pack of Children of Gaia runs into a pack of Dancers, they will *not* sit there and preach peace at them while they get killed. They will fight them and kill them, no questions asked. As I wrote for the Revised Revised CoG Tribebook, it's better to kill them and release their souls that preach helplessly at them and die in the process. Sometimes, people can't be saved. Sometimes the mercy is in the killing. The Gaians need to be able to fight. Their turning of a cheek comes when it comes to other Garou. Not the Wyrm. >>A celebration of life. The Children are meant to celebrate life. For me, dancing and loving and laughing and being happy is the best way to celebrate life.<< This is actually the Fianna forte. My tagline at the bottom, in fact, comes from the back of the Revised Fianna Tribebook. Their passions just drive them to take life for all it gives, and I love them for it. They're my second favorite tribe. >>but they're not meant to be fighters.<< Sorry, but this is where you're simply, well, wrong. The Children of Gaia are *Garou*. The Garou are *warriors*. So by definition, the Gaians are warriors. It's the way they're meant to be. Sadly, the freaking Corebook and *other* tribebooks get this idea out better than the CoG Tribebook which hangs to the "we're not warriors" stereotype that pisses me off. In the corebook you get quotes like "They'll fight with the best of them; it just takes longer to piss them off" (Fianna Stereotype from Corebook) and "Do not discount the Children's fighting ability. While they are uncharacteristically slow to anger, they are incredibly passionate Garou, especially when their packmates or those under their care are threatened. Indeed, under such circumstances, they fight better than any Garoun other than the Fenrir themselves" (Shadow Lord Revised Tribebook) and the Black Fury tribebook also says to not underestimate their fighting ability because, well, they can fight. They *are* warriors. They're just less likely to frenzy in your face, especially if you're another Garou. They understand that they're going to need every single Garou we can get for the coming war. Pure and simple. And they need to be ready to fight together rather than to fight each other. >>It makes me feel like I'm not living enough or not enjoying life enough. Which very few books do for me.<< Oddly enough, I get more of that feeling from the Fianna Revised Tribebook, but then I loved that tribebook. The writing rocked. >>that can be improved.<< Substantially in my mind. >>I like Ringer.<< I would have liked Ringer more if it weren't for the freaking focus on him and his partner. My biggest problem with the story line is, to me and many others, it fell flat. There was far too much focus on Ringer and his partner. To stick in more of that, Comer cut out things like the Auspices and richness he could have put into other areas. I'm sorry. I'm not interested in hearing the story of two gay Garou who have so much to worry about, yadda yadda. I wanted to read about the Children of Gaia. Not Ringer and whoever's relationship. On top of that, the book itself almost supports Children of Gaia going gay or lesbian. This is the only acceptable way to love one another and be able to get something out of it, of course. Unless, apparently, you are both in Crinos form and using the rite that would have been a great BSD rite except for what it accomplishes. Why the hell having sex with another Crinos in Crinos form lowers rage *really* confuses me, though. But gods, "If you're gay, just have a pup by Kinfolk and no one will care"?! Like hell! A hell of a lot of the Garou Nation will care. There are Children of Gaia who will care. The hardest thing about representing the Children of Gaia is that the tribe itself is very different within itself. The tribe itself stands as the proof that Garou from all different sorts of background can stand as one. There *are* Gaians who *will* care very much about that sort of thing. It's just the way it is. >>So what if he's gay (not pulling the homophobe card on you, mind)<< I don't care if he's gay. But I don't want to keep reading what might as well be called "The problems of being gay in the Garou Society... oh, and some stuff on the Children of Gaia to boot." I was sick of it by the time I was halfway through chapter two, and I'm patient with this sort of thing. >>So what if he's in love?<< I don't care if he's in love, but the Children of Gaia tribebook should *not* be about the love of two gay Children of Gaia and their pack. It should be about the Children of Gaia Tribe. >>Where's the problem here?<< Problem is mentioned above. There's too much of the love, too little of the Children of Gaia. He could have cut down on a lot of the lovey dovey stuff for richer information on the Tribe, easily. Again, the Fianna are known to be the Garou most likely to fall in love because they're the ones who feel so passionately. I didn't see anything in there to come close to rivaling the Children of Gaia tribebook. >>It gave the "feel" I expected from the Children. A lot of tribes were, IMHO, changed for the worse when revised hit, the Children are, to me, one of the tribes that improved. I used to not like them at all and now they're one of my favourite tribes.<< The Children of Gaia, so you know, have always been my favorite tribe. From the point that I read about them in the Second Edition book to this very day. I love them. But I love them because they *are* strong. Because they *will* fight the Wyrm. Because they *do* strive for unity among the Garou. Because, no matter what any other tribe might say about them, they *don't* back down from their fight to unify the Garou Nation. They'll do whatever it takes, and it takes *warriors* to unify warriors. No peacenik is going to be able to win the respect needed of warriors to unify them. The Children of Gaia can't afford to not be the warriors they're meant to be. They still get the +4 dots to strength in Crinos. >>For those who still think they're too peaceful - whatdaya want? They took the Anointed Ones out already. But the Children of Gaia ARE meant to be peaceful, they seek peace.<< They're not meant to say that no fighting is the way to go. That's just stupid and blatantly wrong. The war is coming. It's obvious the war is coming. The Wyrm is going to need to be fought. But in order for those defending Gaia to win, they will have to have peace with *one another*. They'll have to unify and fight the Wyrm together. Fighting amongst themselves will only serve the Wyrm's cause. (Continued) Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... Chrisondra - 06/29/2004 03:27:09 - chrisondra@vampirethemasquerade.com >>The Imminent Strike is still there for people who want to play the odd Child that barks instead of biting, but if you want a fighting Garou, just stop whining and get a Get of Fenris character. Or Bone Gnawer if you want to go urban.<< What the hell? First of all, Bone Gnawers are not all about fighting. I would have guessed you would say Get of Fenris and Red Talons. Second of all, that's stereotyping the Get of Fenris to hell and back too. All the Garou are *warriors*. Every. Single. One. They can all fight. All Garou fight. It's what they do. If I want to play a fighting Garou, I'll play a Garou. They're the *warriors of Gaia* for Gaia's sake. A Child of Gaia Ahroun still needs just as many dots in Glory as does a Get of Fenris Ahroun to go up in rank. They fight. They fight in different ways, yes, but they fight. They have to. >>To me the Children were always about peace, and I'm glad they still are.<< ::just shudders:: I suppose there have to be some people like this. But to me, the Children of Gaia are strong. Not because they stand for peace and stay there, no but rather because they're ready to fight and prove their worth to stand up and say that the Garou need to be unified. Their entire tribe, as said, is the standing proof that it *can* work. Unicorn is a totem of unity. Why else would her form change to respresent whoever is looking at her/him? She has a little of every totem, Garou, spirit, and Fera within her/him. >>Which is why I think it's great they don't have fetish weapons in the book, too.<< ::screams:: Gah! They're warriors. If nothing else, they could have had a freaking fetish staff. ::goes to find a place to pound her head:: ... sigh -Becky "Live each day as if it were your last" Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... GhostDog - 06/29/2004 03:56:09 - polandrulz@yahoo.com Yup, the book blows, no doubt about it. I picked it up after reading through the freakin' incredible Bone Gnawers book, but was sorely dissapointed. In fact, the quality was so atrocious that I didn't even bother picking up any more tribe books. How are the rest of them? Any on the same level as (hopefully) Bone Gnawers or (hopefully not) Children of Gaia? Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... Chrisondra - 06/29/2004 04:05:59 - chrisondra@vampirethemasquerade.com To be honest, I liked all the others. The Get of Fenris one is my favorite, though. It made me actually like the Get! ::grins:: That's always good. There are occasional problems with the others, especially if you ask some people, but the Children of Gaia, sadly, have the only tribebook that just totally sucked. I've heard the the Get of Fenris, the Silent Striders, the Black Furies, and the Glass Walkers were all really really good from a lot of people. But, on a ranking on 1-10, for me, the Children of Gaia tribebook is the only one that got below an 8. It got a 2 simply because some of the gifts are cool and the idea of the staff being their primary weapon is cool. -Becky "Live each day as if it were your last" Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... Chrisondra - 06/29/2004 09:51:27 - chrisondra@vampirethemasquerade.com Okay. I don't believe it was mentioned, so I have to bring up another reason why this tribebook really irritated me. I think this was the very first thing I loathed about the tribebook, even, but then, this is usually the first part of any tribebook I read... The Stereotypes about the other tribes... Black Furies: "Well, the closest to us are really the Black Furies...Good friends, but don't get too close." Fianna: "The Fianna are good warriors, but Gaia needs peace...Still, they are closer to us than most other tribes." Get of Fenris: "They hate us for seeking peace, hate all humans...who aren't 'pure' enough for them...they don't like gay people either, even when the Get practice some...violent homo-stuff themselves." ::dives out of the way of the Get who will come to tear out some throats for that:: Glass Walkers: "Now, the Glass Walkers are more like us....So trust a Walker, but not too closely, okay?" There's a smattering of it to give a taste. Basically it says don't get close to anyone but your own tribe. Whether it be the peace this book promotes or the unity that I believe the Gaians truly stand for, how the hell are you supposed to accomplish anything when you can't even trust Garou of the tribe to which you're closest?! Bah. Just bah. -Becky "Live each day as if it were your last." Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... PalominoMule - 06/29/2004 11:06:09 - palominomule@hotmail.com I'll back Becky up on her long post. I really can't imagine liking this book - the Children of Gaia may ultimately want peace, but they are Gaia's warriors and cannot shirk that duty. There is no negotiating with the Black Spiral Dancers or banes. You have to kill, they *will* kill. They may not like it, but it is their duty and the only way to protect all they hold dear. On the opinions toward other tribes: I had forgotten all about that, Becky! You're right, it was frustrating. I mean, yeah, of course the Children of Gaia can't be stupid about dealing with the other tribes - their capacity for forgiveness and tolerance does make them easy to take advantage of - but that's their own issue. When talking about the other tribes they definitely shouldn't be cautioning not to trust folks. And they *certainly* should be able to find something good to say about the Get of Fenris. They're supposed to be mediators and peacemakers, and a basic component is finding the good on both sides of an argument. If they can't discuss each tribe's vices and virtues both then they're failing utterly at what they're supposed to do. As to the quality of the other tribebooks: They're all good. No, really. Even the ones I like *least* (Glass Walkers, Silver Fangs, Stargazers) are still quite good. Some are simply excellent (Black Furies, Red Talons, Silent Striders), and I'd say they all improve their tribe in some way, if only marginally. The first Bone Gnawers tribebook was excellent to begin with, for instance - the Revised one is even better. The Get of Fenris tribebook made me *like* the Get when I really had no love for them before. The Revised Fianna tribebook eliminates a pointless division in the tribe (why would the Garou care so much about a religious conflict in Ireland?) and reaffirms the true focus of the tribe: passion. And I gotta' dig that. Shadow Lords turned from a tribe of Boris Badenovs and Snidely Whiplashs into a tribe of bottom-line pragmatists that are willing to sacrifice all for Gaia - everything and everyone. They're great books. I own 'em all, and I love 'em all. -JuJu Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... Duct_Shui_Tengu - 06/29/2004 11:40:05 Okay, I know some of this probably already got said by Becky, but... >Erf... in all honesty, and people will hate me for this...< Hate, no. Pity, maybe. Think you're either insane or stupid, yes. Stare blankly and wonder how anyone could like that book, definitely. >I liked this tribebook. I actually liked it a lot.< Take what little actual information was in there out and print it with other short stories, and I'd agree with you. It's an -okay- story about a pack, although I could have done without the vader rip- off and the shapeshifting in the middle of downtown. >Now, I don't know what went on between the forum and Jim Comer,< That's simple, he branded me and everyone else who didn't praise his book as being the best thing since sliced bread as homophobes. >I'm new here< We forgive you. >Everybody's saying it portrays the Children as hippies. For one thing, I don't think that's totally true< The book had more factual information about woodstock than it did about the tribe. Then there was the Theurge template that it offered, to say nothing of the Rite which hath been whited out and covered with warding sigils in my copy of the book. Next? >I think it often stresses that the way to peace is struggle.< Correction, it occasionally mentions this. This would have been a good idea to have as a, if not the, central theme of the book. >If you don't like that the Children of Gaia pursue peace, then deal with it - that's the whole idea behind the tribe.< The Children of Gaia persue peace among the tribes. They persue peace between the Garou and the Fera. They do this because frankly every last one of them will be needed for the coming war. They don't try to preach peace at BSD while they get their troats torn out. >The book doesn't dictate that all Children are meant to smoke pot, be vegan and eat funny mushrooms. Just that some do.< Pity the book chose to focus on the ones that do to the exclusion of the entire rest of the tribe. Wait, correction, the book chose to focus on a single pack that does, and oh yeah, so do other members of the tribe. >Maybe I'm just silly, because I also love "Hair" and I've seen it far too many times,< Never seen it, so I can't comment on whether liking it is silly. >but what I got from this movie and also from this tribebook is a love for life. A celebration of life. The Children are meant to celebrate life.< Wrong, the Fianna are meant to celebrate life. The Children of Gaia are meant to struggle for unity among Gaia's warriors in preparation for the coming battle. >For me, dancing and loving and laughing and being happy is the best way to celebrate life.< Again, see Fianna. >They still work hard toward peace, but they're not bitter and they're not jaded.< That's probably one of my complaints right there. With everything they have to put up with, all the times that their efforts meet with failure because someone (god-forbid, one of them perhaps) let their Rage get the best of them, they should be at least a little bit jaded and bitter. >They fight for peace sometimes, but they're not meant to be fighters.< Let's try basic logic here. All Garou are warriors. All Children of Gaia are Garou. Therefore...? >To me, when I read this tribebook, I get a feeling I don't get from any of the other tribebooks. It makes me feel like I'm not living enough or not enjoying life enough. Which very few books do for me. So maybe it's a personal feeling.< Again, Fianna. >But I like it because to me it showed a tribe that tried its best to celebrate the beauty of Gaia, to protect her and her children, even her human children.< Fianna Fianna Fianna. >I like Ringer. A lot. I think he's a great character.< I think he's an okay character. I would have liked the fiction better if there'd been more focus on the pack rather than Ringer, his boyfriend... and oh yeah, they have a pack too somewhere around here. >he has trouble containing his rage sometimes< All Garou have trouble containing their Rage sometimes. For a tribe who have set themselves to a purpose that runs as completely at-odds with their Rage as the Children of Gaia, this should be especially true. Not because they have more difficulty containing their Rage (it might actually be a little easier since most of them are going to average out as slightly less Rage than their counterparts from other Tribes) but because it's so much more critical to their self- appointed duty that they maintain control. >If you want an Ahroun who claws everything in his path, attacks humans and non-humans alike unthinkingly, and has blood perpetually guzzling from his fangs, and can't think about anything but fighting, you're missing the point of Werewolf, of storytelling and making interesting characters.< Now you're just being rude. No-one here has said they want this. Please stop putting words in our mouths... er... keyboards... whatever. >So what if he's gay (not pulling the homophobe card on you, mind)? So what if he's in love? A lot of Ahroun in games I've been in were deeply in love. Where's the problem here? I think it's great that he's in love,adds an interesting bit to the character.< He's gay, and I don't care. He's in love, and I'm happy for him. He's the sole focus of a book that was supposed to be about the whole tribe, and I'm annoyed. He has a make-out session with his boyfriend so there's no room for Auspices, and now I'm just plain pissed. >It had a few technical problems but I liked the story was told.< The problem is that for the tribe books, the focus should -be- on the technical stuff, not the story. Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... fenris_lorsrai - 06/29/2004 16:47:56 - fenris_lorsrai@yahoo.com People have covered many details that disappointed them in this book, but really, the whole theme bothered me. Pretty well all the other material on the CoG's points at them valuing peace, but recognizing the necessity of violence in order to defend Gaia. They might not like it, but they know sometimes it is ultimately the best solution. Gaia would not have given them the powers they have if She never expected them to use them. So the endless emphasis on peace, peace, peace in the Children of Gaia book REALLY irritated me. Gaia made them as warriors. Gave them claws and fangs. The spirits don't just grant them gifts of peace and harmony, but also ones that make them mighty in battle. To turn their back on that is to spit upon the gifts given them, to abandon their duty, to turn their back on their gifts, to deny their very place in the order of things, and basically shirk all the responsibility that came with their gifts. What, miserable, worthless, cowardly excuses for people they would be if they always took the path of peace, never raising their hands to defend themselves or those they were charged with defending. It's like a doctor saying "no, no, I cannot use my skills. I might give them the wrong drug, or my hand might slip during surgery, I am afraid I might do some harm while attempting to use my skills for good. I will just sit here and hold their hand. This way I cannot hurt them and they shall die peacefully." Peace as presented in the CoG revised book is the path of fear and passivity, completely at odds with nature. Peace is an illusion. There may be a dynamic, balanced struggle that SEEMS to be peace, but there is no true peace. There can be no peace between predator and prey, only a balance between them. That balance can get out of whack so that their in an unusually high rate of conflict and the attendent suffering, but there is never true peace without struggle. Peace is an artificial human concept that in the animistic view of Werewolf makes NO SENSE. Gaia is not sweet, passive and peaceful. Predators eat prey. Animals compete with each for food, resources, mates. They don't sit down and have a pleasant discussion about how they should all just get along and oh please, Mr. Wolf, won't you join the cause for peace and stop eating Mr. Rabbit? And the Glass Walkers are supposed to be the tribe of the Weaver! Hah! The version of peace shown in the CoG book would make THEM the tribe of the Weaver, of crushing stasis and the end of struggle in favor of a broken world of endless eternal peace. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Alright, rant over. I have no problem with the CoG persuing peace, it is a noble goal. But the version that appeared in CoG Revised, I have a problem with. The unwillingness to struggle for it makes their peace unnatural and unrealistic. In an animistic universe based on the dynamic balance of universal forces, that peace they strive for should be one of ACTION. In part, my dislike of the book stems from my view on the CoGs, who I dearly love. Yes, the Children love peace... but they love a DYNAMIC peace... that includes destruction, as it was when the Wyrm was the balancer. The Children are just much more aware of the fact that their struggles to achieve peace can also disrupt it, so are much more inclined to take more moderate measures first, then move on to the more disruptive ones if and when they're needed. When the CoG's do feel the need to move decisively and violently, they strike with the fervor of zealots, knowing that they have chosen the correct course of action and violence is the only option. They have no doubts that it could have been done some other way, because they've tried the others ways. When they strike, they do it with complete and total conviction. THAT'S what I would have wanted to see with the CoGs. Yes, they value peace, but they also value action, and when they take it, they do it with a religious fervor unmatched by humans because they know that Gaia includes destruction and death in her heart too, and they are the instruments of that wrath. The peace in CoG Revised was a weak, anemic peace that did not fit with the vitality and dynamic nature of the Werewolf's cosmology. Fenris Lorsrai Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... happynowhere - 06/29/2004 16:49:35 - happynowhere@hotmail.com Oh, this book...! I heard somewhere on here that the author wrote some other stuff that was pretty good. What else did he do? I haven't checked out JuJu's tribebook yet, but I'm going to. So far, the best Children of Gaia have been in the Tribe Novels. The Dawntreader rocks, and would have made every Garou in the Tribebook (Ringer and his pack included) go through a remedial course on being a Garou before stripping them of Rank and making them run through a Rite of Passage again. Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... PalominoMule - 06/29/2004 17:11:38 - palominomule@hotmail.com >>In part, my dislike of the book stems from my view on the CoGs, who I dearly love. Yes, the Children love peace... but they love a DYNAMIC peace... that includes destruction, as it was when the Wyrm was the balancer. << Funny you should mention that. In the legend of the CoG I wrote for the tribebook, they discuss the Triat as it once was, and the Balance Wyrm's task: "The Wyld would create, and the Weaver would give form. Wherever one grew too powerful, the Wyrm would step in and tear away the excess. Whenever the two sisters fought too fiercely or too often he would break it up. Thus the Wyrm was equal parts predator and peacemaker - a thing we Children of Gaia remember well." That phrase - 'equal parts predator and peacemaker' - is one I try to keep in mind when writing for the Children of Gaia. They cannot deny that they are at once human, wolf, and Garou; they are peacemakers and warriors both. That story is in its full form here in my LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/palominomule/27497.html >>I heard somewhere on here that the author wrote some other stuff that was pretty good. What else did he do?<< http://www.pen-paper.net/rpgdb.php?op=showcreator&creatorid=2758 He most notably wrote Mokole, but also was an author for Apocalypse, and Book of the City, among others. I can't pass judgement on Mokole (the book) since I have a bias against the Mokole themselves, but I understand it was quite good. -JuJu Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... falcon_flame - 06/29/2004 17:30:41 - falcon_flame@hotmail.com I very much agree with Juju's statements regarding peace as the state of balance rather than an absolute. It puts me in mind of a quote from the Flight of Dragons film that has always appealed to me - "In a world without evil, good would be totally impotent". The COG seem to be in need of a slap around the head with the Stargazer principal that Life is Suffering. <> I think the word you are looking to insert into that sentence is "some". Think about the existance of the "Burned Out" Flaw. <> I think this character very much belongs in the Tribebook. Simply because nowhere else could have given an example of how a Theurge, through giving in too easily (which the tribebook has really enforced with the peace, love, forgiveness crap) and making too many deals with spirits, could get into so much trouble. Its a glaring, essential example of how *not* to do things, in the same way that the Ragabash templates go against what their tribes stand for (I just love the implications of the Omega Wolf in the Black Fury book). The template is nauseatingly "drug-taking hippy", but at the end is the kick to the balls - even this dozy character realises that she's fucked up and needs out. Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... Freemage - 06/29/2004 19:17:32 - freemage@yahoo.com Hrm... Juju, here's a submission to Unicorn's Brood for your Tribebook. It may very well be treading on ground already walked in some canon book [other than the Revised Splat, which is clearly being ignored like the dreck it is]. Still, if you're interested, go ahead and add it. I would do so directly, but don't have a Livejournal account. I think this goes well with the theme of Unity that you want for the book. ****************** Bucephalus [Totem of Glory, Cost: ??] Bucephalus is a representation of the contradictions found so often in the Children's philosophy--an unbreakable steed who must be tamed; a wild stallion that aids the rise of an empire. Bucephalus [literally, Oxhead] appears as a powerfully built stallion with an oversized head, with an intense, terrifying and above all defiant gaze. His hoof-strikes sound like distant thunder. Packs chosen by Becephalus go through two stages, as did their patron. At first, they are simply fast and hard to dominate. During this period, they often challenge decisions of the leaders of the Sept, whenever they think they can get away with it. However, eventually, they meet a leader they can respect, and swear an oath of fealty; after this time, their loyalty and obedience is second to none. It is a great honor for a leader to be so chosen, and the Pack does not do this lightly, though it is greatly sought. Once a leader is chosen, only the death of the Pack or the leader can break it; if the latter, then the pack will begin the process over again. Benefits: Initially, all children of Becephalus gain the Iron Will Merit [1]. They also double their running speed. When they choose their patron, the Pack also gains a permanent Rank of Honor Renown. The one they choose gains Temporary Glory equal to the highest- Ranking member of the Pack, and +2 dice on all Leadership rolls. If the leader dies, the Pack loses this Renown until they have found another to swear fealty to. Ban: Children of Bucephalus are unruly, and disturbing to those around them. They may not gain any Ranks in Etiquette [those possessed before they received him as a Totem are kept, but all Etiquette rolls are still at +2 Difficulty, just as if they had no Ranks in the Skill]. Furthermore, they suffer under the Pierced Veil Flaw. As they are meant to be supporters of great leaders, they may not take permanent positions of Sept leadership themselves [if truly forced to lead by circumstances, they must turn over the position as soon as an opportunity arrives]. Finally, once they swear fealty to a leader, they may never disobey his orders. If they do so, they lose all benefits immediately, and suffer an additional 2 Permanent Honor Renown. ********************* [1] As I had to write this blind [my book is elsewhere at the moment], I am not certain if Iron Will exists in Revised Werewolf. If not, then change it to a permanent Rank in WP, and a -2 Difficulty to resist domination-type effects. Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... Chrisondra - 06/29/2004 22:57:38 - chrisondra@vampirethemasquerade.com >>Fianna Fianna Fianna<< Aren't the Fianna cool? As for the totem idea... Oooo... Hmm. Interesting Totem. I like. Something to certainly consider and perhaps play with a little. Juju and I will have to talk about it a little! Hmm! -Becky "Live each day as if it were your last" Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... Freemage - 06/30/2004 03:17:04 - freemage@yahoo.com Becky>> By all means. Just the general interest flatters me. Let me know what you finally come up with. Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... PalominoMule - 06/30/2004 18:22:13 - palominomule@hotmail.com Freemage - I like it. A lot, actually. Not sure about the cost - I'm afraid that my greatest weakness is dice, scores, system. Crunchy bits - for all that I love them - I do not truly grasp, since I've not really had any chance to *play* W:tA. A few corrections: It's +1 difficulty when you're unfamiliar with a Skill, not +2. At least according to my core book. And yes, Iron Will exists as a 3 point Mental Merit on page 163 of the PGttG. I'm all for it myself, Becky - as soon as we figure out how much it costs. ^_^;; -JuJu Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... falcon_flame - 07/01/2004 20:05:40 - falcon_flame@hotmail.com I like the totem concept, but I'm really not too keen of the throwing around of a *Permanent* point of Honour (it's the most difficult type of Renown for players to aquire, and that point could swing their Rank - which isn't good to be playing with). Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... Freemage - 07/01/2004 21:29:27 - freemage@yahoo.com falcon_flame>> I can see the concern there. However, I thought that was fairly balanced by the dual restrictions on the Pack--they forever sacrifice the right to lead the Sept, and they cannot violate the orders of their chosen liege. That's pretty hefty mojo, there-- Honor seems to be an appropriate reward for those making that sacrifice. Note that if they choose a Liege just to get the Honor Renown from it, they're going to get smacked pretty quickly--it's not hard to LOSE Honor if you're constantly obeying the orders of a poor leader. Note that the Liege chosen does NOT get Honor, but Glory, from having the support of a Pack of Becephalus' children. That wasn't accidental. The Liege gets the accolades and praise that come from Becephalus' Glory. Juju>> As for corrections and costs, tinker with it however you see fit. Again, flattered by the praise. Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... LunaticFlute - 07/02/2004 15:32:47 - utopianexcapades@yahoo.com Hmm, that's an interesting totem. I'd suggest somewheres around a cost of 6-8. Depending on how you tweak it a little. If you go up, go up a little higher on the price scale, down if you go down. Things like that. Just look at some of the existing totems. Chimera is, what, 7 or 8...and it has some burly benifits. The ban is prety substancial, or insubstancial, depending on how you view "seeking Enlightenment". Also, a hefty ban could offset some of the totem cost. Cockroach, insane for city garou, only costs 7 points in totem. The thing is, the ban is very, very hard to live with. Especially if you've grown up as a bug hating suburbanite or something like that. Mmm, crunchy bits.-LF Subject: COG TB Rev - ugh... DesolationRow - 07/02/2004 22:01:39 Comer's Breedbook Mokole while wonderful in parts also suffered from some unpolished spots: 1) Often vague, contradictory, and mechanically confusing descriptions, uses, and limits of Mnesis, no less than the Dragon Breed's defining trait. While the prose was entertainingly descriptive, liberal use of house rules are practically a necessity. 2) Despite a vehement disclaimer against Mokole of non-tropical heritage, the main character was not only Canadian but simultaneosly both Glasswalker and Mokole. And how the hell does a dingo Red Talon Ahroun wrangle favors from a Cell-phone spirit? This thread now expired. No new posts have been made for a while. White Wolf - Use Terms - Online Catalog